
If you haven’t read Simone Webb’s blog, you should. Her Twitter describes her as a ‘waistcoat wearing socialist feminist type’, and she’s kicked up a fuss lately over Diva magazine’s hiring policy for (unpaid) internships. She’s also at Hertford College, over the road from me in Oxford, and part of the LGBTQ group. Yesterday on its Facebook page, someone posted a message saying ‘Why do I always complain about the lack of girls in our LGBTQ events? … Girls: can you please show up more in our future events?’ This is what Simone said underneath:

The original poster was female-identifying and a discussion followed about whether ‘girl’ or ‘woman’ is preferable and attendance of the group’s events in general. (NB: for the purposes of this post, I’ll be using ‘woman’/‘women.’ I apologise if this is a contentious term for anyone, but to my reasonable knowledge it’s what most feminists prefer.) It turned into a flame war when Jim Everett – previously secretary of OUCA, that great bastion of respect for women, and pictured second from the left in this Telegraph article – posted this comment, and Simone said she was ‘legitimately peeved’ by his reference to ‘gay men’ and ‘girls’.

This was his response to her rebuke:


Dismissiveness? Check. Diversion tactics? Check. Shutuppery in general? Check. On being asked not to derail the discussion, he went on…



A group admin told him to avoid ‘dismissing a woman’s valid concerns about sexism in her queer community’ and that ‘sexist comments about “little feminist wars” and “hysteria” will not be tolerated’. Then he said:



and

That last comment got him banned from the group, but not before he posted the following on another thread which had sprung up.

That’s right – ‘bait’. Those wicked feminists made him say it, who set traps for poor innocent men then come to attack them.
Clearly I support kicking someone from a page who makes comments like those, but there were comments throughout the thread from a lot of other guys that I find pretty worrying. Some of them I know, and some of them I love and respect, so I’ve cut out everyone else’s names, but I think this needs to be addressed even if it’s uncomfortble. When one woman expresses moderate concern to another about being described with a word she doesn’t like, there are things I feel we should avoid doing if we don’t want to make men in LGBTQsocs look like douches.
First of all, let’s not defend misogyny on ‘inclusiveness’ grounds. Here are comments guys made once Jim Everett got kicked:

Question: who was sidelined, or worse, by the person who was banned?
Answer: women (deliberately referred to as ‘girls’ because one of them found this demeaning). Feminists (‘your own little feminist war’). Other people who saw the discussion as valid (‘this argument is absolutely absurd’). People with mental health issues (‘you are fucking insane’) and people upset by aggressive language, both of which are disproportionately common in queer groups.
Are we really saying it’s less important to include all these groups than to include gay men who marginalise them? Dudes. Come on.
Secondly: let’s maybe not tell people to shut up who care about addressing these issues when they come up.

Yes, these arguments are uncomfortable. But if a women’s discussion on gendered language has naturally, organically arisen at the centre of the LGBTQ group, doesn’t that suggest it’s a discussion worth having? Even if tense? And are we really saying that as men in a typically male-dominated group – mainly sexually straightforward white cismen from relatively privileged backgrounds – our comfort is more important than the issues being aired? Also, why are we assuming the ‘stop arguing’ instruction is ours to give? Who made us the moderators in the dispute? It’s clearly an important, valid discussion for the people who want to have it, so maybe ours is not to say ‘be quiet’ – even if we phrase that as ‘Shut up, you’re making the society look bad’.
On a related note: let’s not say ‘later’ or ‘somewhere else’.

Say you’re at work, and your colleague makes a remark about the kind of relationship you’re in which you find homophobic. A heated discussion ensues which turns into an argument, and your boss comes over. She says ‘Now is not the time or place to be concerned about homophobia. Let’s talk about it somewhere else, or some other time. Now back to work, everyone.’ Is that fair?
The discussion arose here and now. This clearly suggests it’s relevant here and now. Saying ‘take it somewhere else’ is sidelining it. It’s saying, ‘Oh, you can talk about whether that word’s infantilising to women. Just don’t do it where we have to hear.’
And by the way, we’re not the boss in this situation. The men in LGBTQ groups don’t get to tell everyone else where to go and hold conversations, as if the others were on their property. Let’s lose the presumption we’re entitled to do that. Furthermore:
Let’s not just flatly insist ‘girls’ is okay.

Simone asked the original poster to ‘call us “women”’ because that’s what she prefers. I’m pretty sure that’s up to her. And moreover, I’m pretty sure she wasn’t inviting men in the group to pronounce judgement on it.
We’re guys and we don’t experience misogyny. We can do our best, and we should, to understand the issues. But given that it’s the women in the discussion who actually face prejudiced behaviour and language, is it possible they’re better judges than we are of what constitutes that?
Most – all, I think – of the guys who left comments are white, as are most society members and most Oxford students. When black communities have arguments over whether to reclaim the ‘n’-word, do we rush in and supply our own thoughts on the issue? Hopefully not. Hopefully, we recognise it’s not our issue and we’re not qualified to comment, and let the people the word affects decide for themselves if it’s offensive.
And let’s not go ‘Hey, it wasn’t meant in an offensive way!’ We’re queer. We should know better.

For the record, I’m not saying ‘girl’ is necessarily offensive. That’s not up to me. (You read the last point, right?) However: there are many degrading things said which aren’t meant that way.
My tutor for prelims mentioned a sign in Cambridge reading ‘Tutors and wives, this way’. Meant offensively? Clearly not, but it very much was. My grandma doesn’t mean to be offensive when she calls me ‘peculiar’. And while I wouldn’t necessarily say ‘gay’ offends me, that’s not (as with Simone and ‘girl’) how I prefer to be described.
Lots of language can be offensive, to a group or an individual, without being deliberately so. In fact, subconscious prejudice is often the worst. I might be wrong, but I really doubt it was a personal attack on the original poster when Simone objected to ‘girl’.
This matters, because the implication is we can use any word we like – no matter how anyone else feels about it – as long as we’re not consciously being bigots. Speaking of which…
Let’s not flip out like we’re being censored.

Rightly or wrongly, someone asks someone else to consider the implications of a word they’re using. Not a huge deal. And it wasn’t a request the word ‘girl’ be banned or censored; I’m fairly sure Simone’s fine with people calling themselves that if it’s their preference. It’s just not hers.
It’s easy to get defensive in these discussions. I’ve done that before and I was being a dick. (I’m sorry, if you’re reading this.) But if we’re going to talk about privilege, maybe we could acknowledge that the language we use reflects our society, and if particular members of marginalised groups want to suggest it’s biased in places, they’re entitled to that.
There are good reasons and bad reasons to ask that a word be avoided, obviously. Bad ones include ‘It’s vulgar’ and ‘My holy book says so’. But it’s not an authoritarian imposition for an 18-year-old to express discomfort when addressed as ‘girl’. Get over it, guys.
Finally, most importantly: let’s ditch the gaslighting, shall we?

When someone leaves a short, to-the-point comment politely suggesting she and other woman not be referred to as ‘girls’ since it can be infantilising, could we at least entertain the idea her concern is valid, and not tell her she’s out of her mind?
Dismissing it is not okay. And when you tell her she’s acting like an eight-year-old, or to ‘chill’, ‘stop whinging’ and ‘get a grip’, you’re dismissing it.
When you minimise the subject by calling it ‘petty’, ‘trivial’ and a ‘small issue’, you are dismissing it. Clearly her feelings trivial to her, or she wouldn’t have brought them up, and it’s not up to us to say what women in the group are and aren’t allowed to find unpleasant.
When you make the discussion sound theoretical, by referring to it as ‘political correctness’ or ‘politics’, you’re dismissing it. The point of the ‘men and girls’ phrase being brought up is that as guys, we don’t usually have words used for us non-maliciously which make us feel like we’re treated as children. This may be ‘political’ to us, because we don’t live it. If someone else who does wants to says it bothers her, we don’t get to write it off as academic.
In short, let’s not be dicks.
This has not been an enjoyable post to write. I don’t put myself on any kind of pedestal, and I definitely don’t presume to speak for the women involved. I don’t particularly want to say any more about this - these are my thoughts, right here - and I left LGBTQsoc a good while back, largely because of things like this. But this kind of thing makes me feel crap about being a guy. Next time you hear feminists talking about how ‘dudes don’t get it’ and you’re tempted to think they just hate on men, comments like some of these are probably one reason why.
Alex Gabriel